Dealer dropped my C5 off lift -- need advice

[JR_Vette]

I quickly scanned through the messages (all 11 pages!) and from what I can tell, the dealer sounds like they might be willing to help you. I have had 2 similar experiences.

The first was in 1990. I had a nearly brand new 1989 Cavalier Z24 that I had bought new. I had taken the car in under warranty to have a rough idle checked out. The car didn't have the first scratch or door ding. When I went to pick the car up, I walked around the passenger side of the car, checked for door dings, walked around the back, and finally checked the drivers side. I saw nothing wrong, and headed back to my office in the car. When I got to the office I noticed the bra was ripped. I peaked under it and saw where the front end was all bashed in. I headed back to the dealer. I met with the service advisor first who immediately blamed me. He had a major attitude and said I wrecked it on the way back to my office. Long story short, I caught them in a lie when they said "We don't know how the fender could have got creased in a rear-end collision" I asked them how they knew it was a rear-end collision if they didn't know anything about it in the first place??? They ended up fixing it, but not after 2 hours worth of *****ing back and forth.

Fast forward to 2002. I had a 17K mile Ruby Red 40th Anniversary Corvette coupe that was practically brand new. I took it into a different Chevy dealer. When I picked it up, the plexiglass top was scratched up beyond repair...you guessed it. Once again they state that they know nothing about it. I state that I had just been there the day before to pick the car up (but it wasn't ready) and the top was fine. FINALLY after stating that I was a member of SEVERAL Corvette communities both online and locally they quickly agreed to replace the plexiglass at nearly $1000. BEFORE I mentioned the forums, clubs, etc, they were not willing to budge.

I forget who it was in this thread that was using this community to help 'get it right', but he is right. It may not help, but from personal experience, it can and does help. The last thing this dealer wants is their name smeered over every Corvette forum on the Internet!!

Accidents happen. It's good business to make the consumer happy. It can come back to bite them if they don't!!!!!

Good luck, and keep us updated!

 

[theblackvette]

Thank you!!!!!!!

Thanks for sharing your stories and thoughts here!!!!!!

We are all hoping the dealership will come through for barnetdh!!!!!!!

I quickly scanned through the messages (all 11 pages!) and from what I can tell, the dealer sounds like they might be willing to help you. I have had 2 similar experiences.

The first was in 1990. I had a nearly brand new 1989 Cavalier Z24 that I had bought new. I had taken the car in under warranty to have a rough idle checked out. The car didn't have the first scratch or door ding. When I went to pick the car up, I walked around the passenger side of the car, checked for door dings, walked around the back, and finally checked the drivers side. I saw nothing wrong, and headed back to my office in the car. When I got to the office I noticed the bra was ripped. I peaked under it and saw where the front end was all bashed in. I headed back to the dealer. I met with the service advisor first who immediately blamed me. He had a major attitude and said I wrecked it on the way back to my office. Long story short, I caught them in a lie when they said "We don't know how the fender could have got creased in a rear-end collision" I asked them how they knew it was a rear-end collision if they didn't know anything about it in the first place??? They ended up fixing it, but not after 2 hours worth of *****ing back and forth.

Fast forward to 2002. I had a 17K mile Ruby Red 40th Anniversary Corvette coupe that was practically brand new. I took it into a different Chevy dealer. When I picked it up, the plexiglass top was scratched up beyond repair...you guessed it. Once again they state that they know nothing about it. I state that I had just been there the day before to pick the car up (but it wasn't ready) and the top was fine. FINALLY after stating that I was a member of SEVERAL Corvette communities both online and locally they quickly agreed to replace the plexiglass at nearly $1000. BEFORE I mentioned the forums, clubs, etc, they were not willing to budge.

I forget who it was in this thread that was using this community to help 'get it right', but he is right. It may not help, but from personal experience, it can and does help. The last thing this dealer wants is their name smeered over every Corvette forum on the Internet!!

Accidents happen. It's good business to make the consumer happy. It can come back to bite them if they don't!!!!!

Good luck, and keep us updated!

 

[Edmond]

Has this story been shared with the other Corvette forums?

 

[TheBlueVette]

I have not received any communication from Stewart!

However, not hearing any negative updates from barnetdh is promising!

Additionally, hearing that the report that GM said that Stewart was going to find a replacement rather than fix the wreck was very encouraging.

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

I told Frank that I want a replacement low mileage C5, coupe or convertible, of equal or greater value. He asked if I would consider the 2001 Magnetic Red convertible they have in the lot. (I've seen it -- nice). I said sure. Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...." I told him I don't want any out of pocket expense. He said he would try to find another '97 with low mileage. I said it doesn't have to be a '97 as long as it is a C5, but he didn't seem to agree. The deal they want to offer is if they find another '97 with low miles, then they will replace it. They are not interested in anything they consider an upgrade.

They want to go ahead with the repair, because if they replace my C5, they get to keep the old one. I don't have a problem with that. I will have a problem if they don't replace.

 

[TheBlueVette]

Driving to work in the Buick this morning, a red C5 convertible passed me. Nearly broke my heart to watch it go by. I miss my C5!

 

[Z06Refugee]

Hi.

I just spent a lot of time reading through this thread. I also sent an e-mail to the dealership voicing my concerns. The dealership in this case needs to figure out a way to make Dave happy. I don't like what I am hearing that first they want to repair, and then they want to replace it, and now they are suggesting the damage isn't that bad and want to repair. You, the dealership have to take responsibility for this. You must do what is necessary to make Dave happy. Dave does not want this vehicle repaired. I do not believe ANY corvette owner would want this vehicle repaired and have to drive in it thinking about this nightmare. You the dealership need to take it from him and exchange it with an equal or better one. I agree that you can't give him a brand new vette, but come on give Dave a break and set him up with a C5 convertible, perhaps a 1998 that was suggested. Don't punish Dave for something that he didn't do. All he wants is a vette that has never been crushed before. Dave loved his car. It shows. Get the guy another one and be done with it. Repairing the car is a slap in the face. I saw the pictures. I wouldn't want it anymore. Get him in a different vette! It will demonstrate that you are a reputable dealer as someone here is really trying to prove. Thank you.

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

I told Frank that I want a replacement low mileage C5, coupe or convertible, of equal or greater value. He asked if I would consider the 2001 Magnetic Red convertible they have in the lot. (I've seen it -- nice). I said sure. Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...." I told him I don't want any out of pocket expense. He said he would try to find another '97 with low mileage. I said it doesn't have to be a '97 as long as it is a C5, but he didn't seem to agree. The deal they want to offer is if they find another '97 with low miles, then they will replace it. They are not interested in anything they consider an upgrade.

They want to go ahead with the repair, because if they replace my C5, they get to keep the old one. I don't have a problem with that. I will have a problem if they don't replace.

 

[JR_Vette]

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

I told Frank that I want a replacement low mileage C5, coupe or convertible, of equal or greater value. He asked if I would consider the 2001 Magnetic Red convertible they have in the lot. (I've seen it -- nice). I said sure. Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...." I told him I don't want any out of pocket expense. He said he would try to find another '97 with low mileage. I said it doesn't have to be a '97 as long as it is a C5, but he didn't seem to agree. The deal they want to offer is if they find another '97 with low miles, then they will replace it. They are not interested in anything they consider an upgrade.

They want to go ahead with the repair, because if they replace my C5, they get to keep the old one. I don't have a problem with that. I will have a problem if they don't replace.

Personally, I would not allow repair of your car, UNTIL you have something stating that you will get a replacement car. They will try and say that they repaired your car, and therefor you are not due a replacement. Once they have repaired "YOUR" car, it's a done deal. If they repair "THEIR" car, it's a different story. Follow me???

 

[KOPBET]

...They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there...

I guess I'm still confused about the role YOUR insurance company is playing in all of this other than acting as an agent in your behalf, i.e having an adjuster examine the car to determine a damage assesment. Again, not for them but for you. It would seem to me that your insurance co. would not have any fiduciary responsibility at all other than that. You should have NO deductible and NO loss by your insurance co. Am I mixed up or reading this wrong?

 

[MsSchroder]

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

.... Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...."

They want to go ahead with the repair, because if they replace my C5, they get to keep the old one. I don't have a problem with that. I will have a problem if they don't replace.

Like everyone else has said... Whatever you do, DO NOT LET THEM REPAIR the car! (Until you have the title to another one. In your hand. Not just a promise.)

This is not a good turn of events. What are they haggling over? the difference between a used 97 and a used 01? what does that amount to? In the grand scheme of things (risk of a potential lawsuit and OSHA attention), I think not much.

It definitely sounds like time to start upping the ante, to help them realize just how precarious this situation is for them. It seems like they still think they are in control of the outcome. Believe me, if this dealership were to appear on the OSHA radar, they will quickly realize they are NOT in control.

If you have not done so already, DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! Letters, photos, notes in your diary, your posts on the CAC. Seriously. Barrage them with your documentation. Let them know that you are preparing to take this as far as it needs to go...

Write some letters to the owner of the dealership, bring up your concerns for worker safety; make sure to mention OSHA a few times. No threats, just concerns You should also try to place a monetary value on your impeccable service records and other (emotional) intangibles. Perhaps this might even bridge the gap between the '97 and the '01.

They don't seem to realize just how bad this could be for them if they don't treat you right.

(just another .02 opionion)

I'm hoping this turns out well for you, I'm just appalled that this (and the other stories that have surfaced in this thread) could happen at a dealership.

Tammy

 

[TheBlueVette]

I guess I'm still confused about the role YOUR insurance company is playing in all of this other than acting as an agent in your behalf, i.e having an adjuster examine the car to determine a damage assesment. Again, not for them but for you. It would seem to me that your insurance co. would not have any fiduciary responsibility at all other than that. You should have NO deductible and NO loss by your insurance co. Am I mixed up or reading this wrong?

My understanding is that my Insurance company has the claim, but they will turn around and make a claim against Stewart for the full amount. I think is called subrogating.

 

[Z_OH_6]

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

I told Frank that I want a replacement low mileage C5, coupe or convertible, of equal or greater value. He asked if I would consider the 2001 Magnetic Red convertible they have in the lot. (I've seen it -- nice). I said sure. Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...." I told him I don't want any out of pocket expense. He said he would try to find another '97 with low mileage. I said it doesn't have to be a '97 as long as it is a C5, but he didn't seem to agree. The deal they want to offer is if they find another '97 with low miles, then they will replace it. They are not interested in anything they consider an upgrade.

They want to go ahead with the repair, because if they replace my C5, they get to keep the old one. I don't have a problem with that. I will have a problem if they don't replace.

barnetdh, early on I was one of, if not the first, to suggest that you should not let the dealer fix your car. I've spent nearly 40 years in the insurance business and want to point out a couple things. The best case scenario, for the dealer, is to fix your damaged car. They will only be out the cost of parts. Their body shop and collision people are already on the payroll. They do not have to submit an insurance claim to the dealership's insurance carrier this way. The car was in their care, custody and control so absolute liability has been established. If they feel the cause of the accident was faulty lift equipment, they have the option of filing a claim against it's manufacturer. Your insurance company is not primary here because the negligence was not yours. BUT they can elect to defend your interest in this case and subrogate against the dealership's carrier for any monies they extend to you as a result of the loss of use of your vehicle etc. Best case scenario to you is for the dealership to bargain with you on the Mag Red vert. In this situation, you may have to negotiate with them on price since it clearly would be more valuable than your "trade-in" '97 but they should make it right as they initially stated. They then would have the ability to file a claim with their insurance carrier for the money they would be out including part of or all of the difference in value between the Red drop-top and your damaged vehicle. The cost of doing business. Then they can fix your car or salvage it out. Don't sign anything yet until you are satisfied that they are doing the right thing by you, you're entitled to being made whole again. Best of luck.

 

[theblackvette]

Dear Mr. Fragomeni of Stewart:

Barnetdh,

I would like this note sent to Mr. Fragomeni personally by you. If you don't mind, please make a color copy of this post and present it to him in person. I would send it e-mail but it probably wouldn't fit on their website and I would fax it but I want him to see the color copies of the damage to my car for comparison. If he would like to reach me for any reason my personal e-mail is theblackcobrasnake@yahoo.com

Dear Mr. Fragomeni:

I would first like to thank you, Mr. Frank Fragomeni, for working with Mr. Barnetdh regarding this matter. Additionally, I thank you Mr. Fragomeni for at least presenting him the vehicle he described as a 2001 Magnetic Red Convertible. It is a BEAUTIFUL corvette! You ask, how do I know? Let me show you and the members here can be the judge. This is the actual car on your lot that is on your website. I think it is an awesome convertible!

Your statement Mr. Fragomeni that "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car".....is reasonable and I understand why you are concerned about just merely trading this beautiful convertible for a 1997 coupe that is now damaged.

However, what I find unreasonable, is how you are pushing for a repair to Mr. Barnetdh's 1997 coupe citing that the auto body shop "thinks" the damage is much less than they thought and them saying it is all just "relatively minor damage."

I find this concerning to me at the very least. Let me tell you why. My 2003 Black Z06 was recently involved in an accident where my front left quarter panel and bumper was damaged. This, in my opinion was "just relatively minor damage." This damage amounted to approximately $1000. I have provided photos for you to view. Please disreagard my parrot. I know it is hard, but my parrot loves my Z06. It is the only photos I have of the damage. Feel free to share these photos with your collegues as hopefully these pictures can create some smiles. I think we can all use some humor here! Here are two photos of my damage:

As I stated before, this "scratch" was worth about $1000 dollars.
This I would classify as "minor" damage. The photos Mr. Barnetdh presented depicts much more than "minor" damage and will cost several thousands to repair.

You may ask, "Why do all these people care?" Let me explain why I am spending time on behalf of Mr. Barnetdh. You have to remember these posts, e-mails, etc are coming from CORVETTE owners. We are a tight group and love our cars. Furthermore, several of us get our cars serviced at DEALERSHIPS just like yours. This is a concern to us as the actions you take dictate what other dealerships are likely to do. Something like this can happen to anyone of us! It is important to know how dealerships would handle such a situation. If Mr. Barnetdh is not taken care of fairly regarding this matter, I would imagine that several Corvette owners would now be reluctant to continue having any dealership work on their vehicle.

Mr. Fragomeni, I respectfully ask you to reconsider your options. Please do not force Mr. Barnetdh to take a repaired car that was damaged at your shop. He does not want that! We Corvette owners do not want that. That damage is clearly major. I know it, Mr. Barnetdh knows, other Corvette owners know it, the body shop knows it, and you know it. I understand that you wish to get this car repaired immediately as you are going to repair it whether or not Mr. Barnetdh takes it back. At the very least, please give Mr. Barnetdh the option, in writing, to accept an equivalent or greater replacement C5 Corvette by your dealership. This is a REASONABLE option and should be offered to Mr. Barnetdh.

With that said, you appear to me as a reputable dealership. I have stated this several times in this forum I visit. You offered that magnetic red convertible to him at an added cost as it so appears. Mr. Barnetdh is not prepared to incur any additional expense. I think in this case, your dealership should consider Mr. Barnetdh's feelings. All he did was to get his beloved, C5 serviced at your dealership. And for some reason, this accident occurred. Please consider his feelings. Some situations such as this one require sacrifices. Please consider exchanging this convertible for his car. Yes, it is not an even exchange but it would end this frustrated time for Mr. Barnetdh, and at the same time demonstrate to national Corvette owners that dealerships, especially yours, are dedicated to their customers!!!!! If this cannot be offered, then as an alternative offer him the even or greater exhange in writing and locate another C5 that he agrees to. But, I urge you to consider taking a sacrafice in this particular situation. It breaks my heart to hear him say that he is now driving a Buick and how he felt when he saw a C5 on the road while driving the Buick. I still maintain my confidence in your dealership that you will make things right for Mr. Barnetdh! Please don't let us and Mr. Barnetdh down. We are counting on you!

Yours truly,

the blackvette

 

[SPANISHVETTS]

Frank Fragomeni, the General Manager at Stewart just called me. He's pushing for a repair, saying that the auto body shop (which he says is not part of Stewart) thinks the damage is much less than they thought. They haven't started work yet, because CSAA hasn't made it out there. They say it's all just relatively minor damage.

This is called ¨the old back steep¨, they realized that they ¨lost¨ by speaking first, and that they had admitted guilt and placed themselves in a bad position. Car dealers are the 2nd best back steppers in the universe, the first being Time-Share salespeople.

The philosophy behind the back steep is this; maybe it did not register on this yoyo that we just gave away the cookies, lets go back to step one and see if he buys it. Ignore the back step or laugh at it but do not accept it.

Put in writing that you do not want their shop to repair the car. It is not theirs to repair. If they touch it with out your approval it is a criminal offense. Heck, call it grand theft auto, you gave them the car for a 40K service, if they did anything other than preformed the scheduled service then the car was technically stolen. Since you never gave them permission to move your car to the body shop, in doing so they stole your car.
When you are in your new ride and the title of your broken Vette is in their name they can fix it as much as they want.

Carry your Palm or PPC with you and record all of these conversations. Be sure to let them know that they are being recorded.

When they talk about fixing your car you should talk about loss of INcome, INconvenience, INsomnia, you get it almost any thing that starts with IN gives a good lawyer a shot at big punitive damages.

 

[RCG]

He asked if I would consider the 2001 Magnetic Red convertible they have in the lot. (I've seen it -- nice). I said sure. Then he started with "Well you know it's worth a lot more than your car...." QUOTE]

At the risk of introducing an unwanted opinion, I think the above behavior skirts right around the edges of "sleazy."

Blackvette, perhaps you haven't heard from the dealership because their lawyers have advised them that you have no standing in the matter.

I think they should give him the MR Convertible, with no transfer fees on any other baloney, and a no BS warranty enforceable at any GM dealership, so that he never has to set foot on their property again unless he wants to.

Cheers!

 

[Edmond]

I think they should give him the MR Convertible, with no transfer fees on any other baloney, and a no BS warranty enforceable at any GM dealership, so that he never has to set foot on their property again unless he wants to.

Cheers!

I'm sure that would be the worst case scenario for the dealer. I don't think the dealer would do that unless there was legal action or at least threatened legal action at the very least.

But what's the worst case scenario for the dealer would be the best case scenario for our friend.

 

[tomls1]

barnetdh,

just got done reading this thread. what happened to your c5 is horrible and i really feel for you. good luck with the mr vert...it's the least they could do, and i think it would show that they are a good, honest and fair dealership that really cares about the customer.

cheers,

tom

p.s. let's hear it for theblackvette who's done a great job leading the charge.

 

[TheBlueVette]

I spoke to CSAA told them to hold off on the claim. They have no problem putting the claim on hold as long as I want, or canceling. I told the adjuster what happened, and he expressed concern that they might miss something in a repair of this nature, and not even know until much later, in which case I would be out of luck.

I called Frank Fragomeni at Stewart's and told him that I will not authorize repairs until we have an understanding in writing of what they will do. He put the sales pitch on me, but I insisted on a replacement of equal or greater value. He said that it might be difficult to find another '97 with low miles and he wsn't sure he could do it. I pointed out (again and again) that it did not have to be a '97, but he wasn't interested. He was going to turn this over the the dealership insurance company and let them deal with it He has no say. He will tell them that I want a replacement or cash. (I get to have some say on the cash value, which I think should be the Blue Book private sale value, not trade-in value.) Anyway, he was real puzzled I was acting like this, because "a car is just a car." ad He said, if I were involved in a car accident on the road, I wouldn't expect the other driver to replace my car, so why should this be any different?

 

[Bob Chadwick]

My understanding is that my Insurance company has the claim, but they will turn around and make a claim against Stewart for the full amount. I think is called subrogating.

You've learned how the game is played. Your insurance company pays you less your deductible, which in this case they graciously agreed to waive because they had no obligation to do so, and they then pursue the recovery against the dealer.

I do insurance for a living. If this were me, I would probably get my company to total the car and then give the dealership a time certain to respond. If they continue to jerk you around, I would probqably do the publicity thing and then get the cash from your insurance company and replace the car.

If the repair route becomes an option here, you are not obligated to have tghe repairs done at his shop. In Calfornia you have the right to select the shop of your choice.

If the car is totalled, you will only be entitled to actual cash value plus some minor incidentals such as licensing, taxes, etc. This is whether the dealer pays or your insurance company. Every State is a little different so I'm not 100% sure of what exactly you would be entitled to in California. Check with the Insurance Commissioner's office. They can probably help you as they are the ones that enforce the insurance laws and regulations.

OSHA is not going to get involved here. No one was hurt. Because of manpower issues, they will not usually get involved unless someone is killed.

Doesn't California have some consumer group that monitors repair shops. Last time I was in a shop out there there was a sign that indicated that they had to give you a written estimate, etc and that if you had any problems to call an 800 number.

 

[Edmond]

Have you tried getting in touch with the owner of the dealership. I would be afraid that if the insurance companies fought it out, it could take a long time before anything is settled.

I don't doubt it when he says it's out of his hands. Of course, the owner would be able to do whatever he wants.

 

[Bob Chadwick]

Have you tried getting in touch with the owner of the dealership. I would be afraid that if the insurance companies fought it out, it could take a long time before anything is settled.

That shouldn't be the case. By law in California, the insurance company has to accept or deny liability within a certain time frame, settle the case and issue a payment.

The subrogation thing is handled by inter-company arbitration after the payment is made to the insured or claimant and is transparent to the policy holder.